Debate on Gujarat, PM and Indian history...

This is a conversation I had recently with a friend of mine, it deals with a range of issues as mentioned above. I thought will post it, so here goes...

Me: So your Modi now wants to become the PM of India?
Friend: Where did u get that news?
Me: it was in the news as well as in the papers.
Me: not that he has said that in so many words
Me: but it was implied by his actions
Friend: k
Friend: every1 has right to his aspiration/ambition
Friend: y u r opposed to his ambition?
Me: I am opposed to him
Friend: so go n oppose him
Friend: don’t say it to me
Me: it would be a black day in the history of the country if he becomes the PM
Friend: that’s your thought
Me: and many mores I would say
Friend: but not all
Me: naturally there are right wing extremists out there who wont agree with me
Friend: and much more people
Friend: those who live in Gujarat will vouch for him
Me: I have my doubts
Friend: I aint extremist
Me: even if I had lived in Gujarat I would still vote against him
Friend: I have my doubts
Me: ur doubting that I would vote for him if I had lived there?
Friend: I m sure that u will vote if u had lived there
Me: then sadly my friend ur wrong
Friend: well u never know
Me: I know
Friend: unless u had lived there
Friend: I have seen Gujarat growing after he came to power
Me: I don’t have to live there to take this decision
Me: its not only about development
Friend: u cant take decision unless u experience it
Friend: u have only one perspective (outer one), u never had an inner one
Me: wont vote for some right wing extremist as the country's prime minister!!
Friend: so u r I wud say, biased
Friend: but u wud vote leftists, right?
Me: I won’t vote leftists
Friend: or some Sardar who is a puppet
Me: puppet?
Friend: puppet
Me: who just got u the nuke deal?
Me: sum joke?
Friend: well that’s bcoz of Madamji
Friend: not Sardarji
Me: BJP would have taken the deal with only half benefits being offered
Me: and now they are opposing it?
Friend: he is just a puppet without any real power
Me: u couldn't be more wrong
Friend: well that’s again ur perspective
Friend: nobody is saint in politics
Friend: everyone is a bloody damn cheat, an opportunist
Me: at least most are still not mass murderers
Friend: oho, u say that
Me: yes I say that
Friend: what did Mr. Gandhi do sending IPKF to Srilanka?
Friend: what did Mrs. Gandhi did sending those gun trotting ppl inside the golden temple?
Me: I guess he wasn't letting ppl die while he took no decisions?
Me: and how many innocent ppl got killed in those?
Friend: where?
Friend: what did Mrs. Gandhi did sending Indian troops to Bangladesh??
Me: in both the incidents u mentioned?
Friend: was it not internal interference in east Pakistan??
Friend: IPKF, Indian soldiers
Me: I would say no
Me: I am still in favor of hot pursuit
Friend: Golden temple, the repercussion killed hundreds of Sikhs & Hindus
Me: and as to IPKF I think Srilankan govt. wanted them?
Friend: Bangladesh, India still is being terrorized because of it
Me: the repercussions not the act itself?
Friend: never buddy, go back to history
Friend: if u do an action, u r equally responsible for its reaction too
Me: so ur meaning to say what happened in those riots are justified?
Friend: u can’t just start a fire n say I had started the fire and never intended to burn the house/forest
Friend: I never said I m justifying it
Me: u just did?
Friend: I m saying nobody is saint
Friend: I m saying everyone is selling India
Me: there is still no conclusive proof that the train was burnt by any person of any particular religion
Friend: so now everyone decides who is the lesser evil
Friend: oh, do u still think so??
Me: and the chief minister sat there and let his goons go on a killing spree
Me: as to IPKF u got ur facts wrong
Friend: n what abt the riots after Operation Blue Star??
Me: go and cross check them
Friend: u need to get ur facts right buddy
Me: u do it mate
Friend: u do it
Me: SL govt requested it
Me: there was an accord
Friend: ok u think so?? then y did they never tried to utilize IPKF??
Me: the forces were fighting the militants and not sum innocent civilians
Friend: instead it was IPKF who got under SL govt skins with its own agenda
Me: the basic premise wasn’t that, was it
Me: they had wanted it first
Friend: listen, under those Gandhi’s, India wanted to b the big brother
Friend: had a habit of interfering in other ppls business
Friend: n now bcoz of that, India is paying price in terms of terrorism
Me: oh yah?
Me: is that so?
Friend: y wud Pak not be angry at India’s misdeeds??
Me: I don’t think Afghanistan did anything remotely like that
Friend: what was happening at east pak, was its internal affair, if India had to meddle, it had to do with UN
Me: even Malaysia?
Me: y do they get bombed by terrorists trained by pak?
Friend: u just don’t meddle with internal affairs of a country without an international council
Friend:??
Me: terrorists are terrorists
Me: there isn’t any reason
Friend: just listen for a sec
Me: pak angry at us?
Me: that’s just bull shit
Friend: y do u think pak is after Kashmir after 1971?
Me: who did all those incursions?
Me: we or them?
Friend: was there no pak or Kashmir before 1971?
Me: no pak?
Me: pak is there since 1947
Friend: but Kashmir was never an agenda until 1971
Me: and in case u forgot we have fought wars with them even before 1971
Friend: if u got ur facts right, there was never a terrorist threat in Kashmir until 1985
Friend: y Kashmir became a hotspot after 1985??
Friend: answer me these simple questions
Friend: I will tell u
Me: Kashmir has been the flash point since the independence
Friend: no
Me: yes
Me: u go and check
Friend: it was just one issue, that was never a flashpoint
Friend: u go n check
Friend: it got into pak's head after 1971
Me: it was the reason for war
Me: what more of a flash point do u want?
Friend: pak had every reason to b angry at India’s bullishness
Friend: which war??
Friend: which war??
Friend: get ur facts right before talking
Friend: there was only a single war with pak
Me: the first war was also b coz of Kashmir
Friend: 1961 war was with China not Pak
Me: only a single war?
Me: u crazy?
Friend: check ur facts
Me: what bout the war just aft independence?
Friend: year please
Me: how many wars do u know between India and Pakistan?
Friend: 1
Friend: and if u count kargil, then 2
Me: ur history is pretty poor
Friend: better than urs
Me: there have been 4 wars between them
Friend: year plz
Me: 1947, 1965, 1971. 1999
Friend: hohohohohohohohoho
Me: better check them out
Friend: 1965 was with China
Me: too bad
Me: it was in 1962
Friend: 2 wars were with china
Friend: there is no war in 1947
Me: only 1 war with China mate
Me: in 1962
Me: I know u were not born then
Me: but stiil expected you to know.
Friend: the 1965 u r saying is not a war, it was infiltration
Me: well infiltration led to the war
Friend: anyways, it remains that Bangladesh was India’s misadventure
Friend: America always meddle with other ppls internal business
Me: the refugees were pouring into our country
Me: what should have been done?
Friend: stop them
Me: and let them die?
Friend: u can’t just wage a war bcoz refugees were pouring in
Friend: tomorrow u wage a war on Bhutan bcoz refugees were pouring in, what stupid reasoning
Me: if they were pouring in there must have been sum reason
Me: Bhutan?
Friend: just giving an example
Me: hw can u equate it with Pakistan?
Friend: I m saying that if ur neighbors wife comes n complains that her hubby is beating her, u don’t go n break his neck, do u??
Friend: u bring in the police/women’s right organization
Me: I guess we are talking about 1971?
Me: not 2008?
Friend: u don’t go n break him
Friend: do u??
Friend: ya
Friend: m giving u a similar scenario
Me: cant work in 1971 naa
Me: more than 2 and half decades ago
Friend: m talking about root cause
Me: Pakistan is a bloody idiot
Friend: India was a buffoon
Me: The administrators never learn from their mistakes
Me: I have my doubts
Friend: y u point finger at pak when India was the rowdy
Me: India rowdy?
Friend: yes during those phase
Friend: it tried to act as a big bro
Me: 1/3 of Kashmir is in the occupation of Pakistan
Me: and ur calling our country rowdy?
Me: and also there is a portion with China if I may add
Friend: that’s bcoz of 1971
Me: as to 1971 we were attacked first
Friend: u don’t go n attack ppl
Friend: n when they attack back, u cant complain
Me: not the other way around
Friend: no
Me: yes
Friend: get ur facts right
Me: u do it
Friend: we went to free Bangladesh
Me: we didn’t enter
Friend: yes we did
Me: there was troop buildup only
Me: not crossing of the border
Friend: it crossed
Me: but Pakistan attacked the mainland
Me: no they didn’t cross
Friend: they crossed
Me: they didn’t
Me: not till war was declared
Friend: no
Me: yes
Friend: nahi
Me: yes
Friend: naught
Me: yes
Me: they used air strikes
Friend: aur synonyms nahi aate mujhe
Me: then India declared war on Pakistan
Friend: dekh, I don’t want to fight on msgr
Me: we are not fighting
Me: we are debating history and politics
Friend: not on msgr plz
Me: and everything under the sun that can be debated
Friend: I m fed up with typing
Friend: day in n day out I do that
Me: I am not
Me: long time since I typed fast and furious
Friend: I don’t know abt fast, but furious – yes
Me: I have to make it fast also naa
Friend: don’t know if u have a speech to text convertor
Me: cant let u steal a march over me
Me: since we are going from one time frame to another
Friend: it will go on
Me: pretty fast
Friend: bcoz no one is relenting
Me: and admittedly ur speed is better than mine
Me: so I have to type fast so that I can complete my responses b4 we move onto the next time frame
Friend: obviously
Friend: yes
Friend: oh is that so?
Me: yes
Friend: hmm
Friend: m actually chatting with 2 different people on 2 different subjects
Friend: vastly different I may add
Me: well I can’t help it can I?
Me: I am always focused
Friend: nopes, u cant
Me: I am not in the habit of two-timing
Friend: well it holds a very different meaning
Friend: so watch ur mouth
Friend: rather fingers
Me: well u got what I meant
Me: that was just sum wit being written for u
Friend: I did not
Me: but I see that ur not much of a receiver
Me: ur antennae is not working
Me: not that I works much in these matters anyhow
Friend: I didn’t get u
Me: especially with me if I may add
Me: u cant catch the subtleties of a conversation I think
Me: at least not on chat or even on voice
Friend: hmm
Me: u see its not easy keeping up with a s/w developer in typing speed
Me: I am doing as best I can
Friend: its not abt s/w engg
Friend: its abt a typist
Friend: good
Friend: at least ur typing speed will increase
Me: well for that I will have to be constantly at it
Friend: m also trying to get used to this lappy keyboard
Me: I don’t get much practice nowadays as it is
Friend: ya, I understand what u r pointing at
Me: for a change u do
Me: I am relieved
Friend: hmm
Me: mostly u don’t even understand oblique references, leave alone subtleties
Friend: oh, give me an instance
Me: I already showed it to u
Friend: when?
Me: mostly u wouldn’t have understood the reference I just had made
Friend: I wud have definitely
Me: and u cant catch wit, humor, anger, frustration in words written or spoken if u cant see the person
Friend: well m not much of a fielder na
Me: u wouldn’t have
Me: well if u take it literally I cant help it
Me: the following link is F.Y.I.O. and not for further discussions http://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/origins.html
Friend: ok
Me: but one thing I did feel that is wrong with our education system
Friend: n what is that?
Me: we didn’t study our own war history too well
Friend: we r bigot
Me: there is scope for improvement
Me: no other country is so badly placed I guess
Friend: biased to the core
Friend: even u, sorry to say
Friend: u cant think India did anything wrong
Me: I am talking bout something else altogether
Friend: but I can think n know India did wrong during those times
Friend: those gandhians
Me: they did what they thought was best
Friend: but it reflects only one aspect
Friend: ther other aspect is hidden
Friend: just like the other side of the moon
Me: I wouldn’t compare them with ppl who sat in their offices while the city burned
Friend: moon was never flat, its always a sphere
Me: and they didn’t let the police take action
Friend: I cant compare ppl who never fought war but initiated it
Friend: I cant forgive people to push the innocent soldiers into war for their own game
Friend: so that they can garner votes
Friend: bloody politics
Me: I wouldn’t agree that the wars were India’s machinations at all
Friend: if India had not gone into war, do u know indira Gandhi wud have lost the elections??
Me: and I am sad to say u wouldn’t find many takers in the whole wide world for ur theories
Friend: hands down, I may add
Friend: well revolutionary ideas r never accepted immediately
Me: its not good to live in fool's paradise
Friend: its not good to go by what others perceive
Me: I don’t make my mind by any one person's perspective
Me: I make an informed choice
Me: u just got the link
Me: go through it
Friend: u might think u did, I think I did... so who is right here?
Me: and u can go through wiki too if u like
Me: any more info I would happy to search and find for u
Friend: I will see
Friend: but I will make my mind based on my intelligence
Friend: however small it may b
Me: its basically how to put it......
Me: yes
Friend: I just know one thing, u don’t boss around ppl even if u r strong
Me: very stubborn
Friend: n India used to do it
Friend: facts r mostly cruel, but facts r facts
Friend: India was bullish
Me: I know only one thing nothing comes before my self security
Friend: dadagiri
Me: bullish?
Me: china attacked us
Me: not the other way round
Friend: m not talking abt china
Me: even pak
Friend: china is bullish
Me: we were attacked time and again
Me: by them
Friend: it wants to capture Himalayan region
Friend: we made pak what it is today
Me: even after kargil they haven’t learnt
Me: they can see only as far as India
Friend: if I may give a rather similar example... its America who created Osama
Friend: who stuck back
Me: India on the other hand is beyond Pakistan
Friend: but who made pak like that?
Friend: India, it is
Me: they made themselves
Me: I wont agree to that on ur life
Me: killing is never a solution
Friend: we r not born to agree with each other, so that’s natural
Me: all I know is they are militants
Me: and if I got a free hand I would destroy all existing training camps
Me: even if I had to cross the border for that
Me: in spite of 4 defeats they still don’t learn
Friend: was reading ur blog today
Me: hmm
Friend: something was amiss
Me: ?
Friend: I forgot what it was
Me: now now
Me: what can that be?
Friend: don’t remember
Me: maybe I wasn’t too opinionated this time around
Friend: ya got it
Friend: we don’t need FBI, we need CIA
Me: federal agency man
Me: not CIA
Me: u got it wrong
Me: CIA dsnt deal internal security
Friend: federal agency cant infiltrate terrorist
Friend: n we need to do that to stop this
Me: CIA is like our RAW
Friend: yes
Me: only much more professional maybe
Friend: we need RAW in a very aggressive manner
Me: we need an agency for internal security with wide ranging powers
Friend: FBI is our CBI
Me: that would be FBI
Me: CBI cant do shit
Friend: that’s precisely the smiley was for
Me: its if may call it- defunct
Friend: we need RAW
Friend: full fledged
Me: RAW is intelligence
Me: they do maybe espionage
Friend: not only that
Me: this needs internal agency
Friend: they r killing machines
Me: states has got so many agencies
Friend: anyways
Friend: I will tell u one anecdote
Friend: it relates to a friends uncle.
Friend: he was nearby one blast site, n when he came to know he rushed to the VS hospital to donate blood.
Friend: when he came out of the hospital, the blast occurred
Friend: n right now he is with 92% burns and on ventilator
Me: ohh
Me: that’s sad
Friend: My friend was telling me his chance of survival is very distant
Friend: I hope he survives
Me: with 92% I would say that’s true
Me: u can only hope, and since ur a believer pray